WEBVTT 1 00:00:38.230 --> 00:00:40.630 Jennifer Eustis: Hello, Vivian, how are you? 2 00:00:41.300 --> 00:00:44.790 Vivian Gould: Hello, Jennifer, I'm having quite a week. 3 00:00:45.090 --> 00:00:47.110 Jennifer Eustis: Oh… Right. 4 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:49.150 Jennifer Eustis: Good or bad. 5 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:55.260 Vivian Gould: I… well, it's just weird. It's… I'm… I have been working on a stats project that's… 6 00:00:55.510 --> 00:01:00.630 Vivian Gould: like an ASAP, so my mind has been on a little else, but then I also had 7 00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:07.649 Vivian Gould: a really awful case of food poisoning that I had to work through because we're short-staffed. 8 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:09.879 Vivian Gould: And so it's just… I feel… 9 00:01:11.570 --> 00:01:18.030 Vivian Gould: a certain sense of unreality. I mean, I'm now recovered from the food poisoning, but, 10 00:01:18.520 --> 00:01:21.370 Vivian Gould: Yeah, it was just… it's been kind of an interesting week. 11 00:01:21.810 --> 00:01:26.759 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, well, I hope you get to rest sometime in the future. 12 00:01:26.820 --> 00:01:29.759 Vivian Gould: Yeah, well, I slept about 12 hours last night, so… 13 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:31.360 Jennifer Eustis: Oh, wow. Yeah. 14 00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:31.950 Vivian Gould: Yeah. 15 00:01:31.950 --> 00:01:32.560 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah. 16 00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:35.689 Vivian Gould: I mean, honestly, for me, sleep is the best medicine. 17 00:01:36.500 --> 00:01:42.719 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, probably. I mean, especially with food poisoning, you just kind of have to, unfortunately, ride that one out. 18 00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:43.350 Vivian Gould: Right. 19 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:45.250 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah. 20 00:01:45.520 --> 00:01:46.090 Vivian Gould: Yeah. 21 00:01:46.380 --> 00:01:48.910 Jennifer Eustis: Does not sound pleasant, though. 22 00:01:48.910 --> 00:01:53.900 Vivian Gould: No, no, it really wasn't. It was possibly… it was just not a fun time. 23 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:55.160 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah… 24 00:01:55.160 --> 00:01:58.280 Vivian Gould: How are you? I hope your week has been better than mine. 25 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:15.359 Jennifer Eustis: You know, it's… it's going fine. We… gosh, it took me, like, an hour and a half to get home last night, so we were hit with another storm that had a couple inches, and then finished with a couple inches of ice. 26 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:16.310 Vivian Gould: Huh. 27 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:24.769 Jennifer Eustis: That's no fun. Oh, no fun at all. At least they had a delay this morning, so that was good. 28 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:25.630 Vivian Gould: That's good. 29 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:28.200 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, I know. 30 00:02:32.910 --> 00:02:34.000 Vivian Gould: Morning, Cherra! 31 00:02:38.850 --> 00:02:39.909 Vivian Gould: I can't hear you. 32 00:02:41.690 --> 00:02:42.640 Vivian Gould: If you're talking. 33 00:02:45.510 --> 00:02:46.060 Vivian Gould: Nope. 34 00:02:46.450 --> 00:02:48.219 Jennifer Eustis: Oh, there they go. 35 00:03:08.010 --> 00:03:09.120 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Can you hear me now? 36 00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:09.680 Jennifer Eustis: Yep. 37 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:11.979 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Okay, perfect. That was odd. 38 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:12.970 Kristin Martin: Okay. 39 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:14.540 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Howdy! 40 00:03:15.190 --> 00:03:15.810 Vivian Gould: Howdy. 41 00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:22.770 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Sorry. 42 00:03:25.570 --> 00:03:27.890 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I know some people are out today, but I… 43 00:03:28.050 --> 00:03:31.160 Tara Barnett (Index Data): See folks still rolling in, so… give it a second, Polly. 44 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:33.260 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Try to figure out screen sharing. 45 00:03:50.380 --> 00:03:51.140 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Lord. 46 00:03:55.700 --> 00:04:06.830 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Okay, alright. Well, I hate to make people wait, and I've got a few minutes of housekeeping stuff to take care of, so, we'll do that, and then, Jennifer Eustis is here to talk about… 47 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:08.970 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Deleting records. 48 00:04:09.720 --> 00:04:10.520 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I think. 49 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:12.250 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Yes. 50 00:04:12.410 --> 00:04:13.230 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Yep. 51 00:04:13.230 --> 00:04:14.540 Jennifer Eustis: I'm here. 52 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:36.290 Tara Barnett (Index Data): having an interesting, interesting Zoom morning, I think, over here. Okay, so, first I wanted to take a look at upcoming sessions that we have on our calendar. So today we're doing record deletion. Next Monday I have a conflict, so I was going to go ahead and cancel, Monday's meeting, unless there are any objections. 53 00:04:37.960 --> 00:04:54.989 Tara Barnett (Index Data): We'll say there are not, and I'll go ahead and do that. And then on the 18th, Joe Reimer has reached out to talk about, bringing acquisitions behavior in line with folio defaults. So I think that we'll do that on the 18th, if that's okay with everyone. And then, we'll have the 23rd to plan as well. 54 00:04:55.200 --> 00:04:58.730 Tara Barnett (Index Data): So, some cool stuff coming up. That sounds good to me. 55 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:15.259 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Great. The next thing I wanted to mention, is that we are still in search of a new convener. Co-conveners are, welcome if you have a pair that would like to take on this role. So I'll keep… I'll keep looking around to find someone to take my place. 56 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:21.330 Tara Barnett (Index Data): There was also a message posted on the channel, the PCs trying to, 57 00:05:22.210 --> 00:05:26.740 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Proactively monitor upcoming releases for new development that needs PC input. 58 00:05:26.890 --> 00:05:35.169 Tara Barnett (Index Data): They're starting with Umbrella Leaf, so they're wondering if there's any features in Umbrella Leaf that CrossAppSig is involved in. 59 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:40.339 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I think I need to think about this one a little bit more, but if you know anything, we can reply on the channel. 60 00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:45.950 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And then the last thing that I sort of wanted to deal with, housekeeping-wise, was WolfCon presentations. 61 00:05:46.050 --> 00:05:56.219 Tara Barnett (Index Data): So traditionally, we have, submitted a working group session, and then, like, another sort of theme session. So we should decide if we want to do that 62 00:05:56.820 --> 00:06:06.969 Tara Barnett (Index Data): But the problem is that I will not be there to run it, so we would also need to decide who will run it. So, something to think about a little bit more. I don't know if folks know if they're going yet or not, 63 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:09.929 Tara Barnett (Index Data): But it seems like we should submit something one way or another. 64 00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:13.919 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Any thoughts on any of those topics, or should we move on to record deletion? 65 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:34.599 Jennifer Eustis: I just had one, one comment that, we do have a, submission guidelines, because I know people are like, well, what's on the submission form? So, you, don't have to ask that question any longer. 66 00:06:34.650 --> 00:06:47.670 Jennifer Eustis: So we… so here it is with the values, and there's… on the top of the page, there's a link to a presentation, that you can go through, 67 00:06:49.830 --> 00:06:50.580 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Nice. 68 00:06:50.580 --> 00:07:00.689 Jennifer Eustis: And, yeah, and so that explains everything. And if you still have questions, you know, just reach out at Wolf Calling Conference chat. 69 00:07:00.870 --> 00:07:07.869 Jennifer Eustis: Or myself, or Thomas Trott, and we'll answer your questions. 70 00:07:08.850 --> 00:07:24.080 Tara Barnett (Index Data): That's awesome. Yeah, I wonder if… I wonder if Tom might be interested in doing something with ItemState. That could be something that we're involved in, for sure. I'm pretty sure Tom will be there. I… I will not be there either in person or virtually, so I won't be able to run this virtually either. 71 00:07:25.010 --> 00:07:37.970 Jennifer Eustis: Well, we do have it, so we do have it open, so if you're presenting virtually, if you can find someone who is there in person, who can be your moderator, you can still submit. 72 00:07:39.260 --> 00:07:41.010 Tara Barnett (Index Data): For people who can go virtually. 73 00:07:41.010 --> 00:07:41.670 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah. 74 00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:42.830 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Okay. Yeah. 75 00:07:42.830 --> 00:07:46.650 Jennifer Eustis: You just have to find that in-person moderator for you. 76 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.390 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Awesome. Well, I do, I do have colleagues who will be there in person. 77 00:07:52.550 --> 00:07:54.310 Tara Barnett (Index Data): But I… I will be in… 78 00:07:54.950 --> 00:08:00.099 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I will not be in either modality. So, hopefully we can find someone. 79 00:08:00.520 --> 00:08:01.770 Jennifer Eustis: Heh, yeah. 80 00:08:02.010 --> 00:08:10.030 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Cool. I see many more people joined us. Welcome. We were just doing housekeeping stuff. 81 00:08:10.030 --> 00:08:19.760 Laura Daniels: Yes, Tara, the… some of us clicked on the link in the… in the minutes, and it's for… Oh, Jesus. Yeah. I just realized that. 82 00:08:20.300 --> 00:08:21.100 Laura Daniels: So… 83 00:08:22.690 --> 00:08:24.449 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And it's for, like, a different meeting? 84 00:08:25.850 --> 00:08:30.640 Laura Daniels: I think it's for… probably, the Wednesday. 85 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:33.210 Laura Daniels: Aren't there. 86 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:34.400 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Today's Wednesday. 87 00:08:34.400 --> 00:08:38.050 Laura Daniels: Oh, wait, then it's for the mon… I… I don't know. It just… it was… 88 00:08:38.059 --> 00:08:39.699 Tara Barnett (Index Data): It doesn't match the calendar, is what you're saying. 89 00:08:39.700 --> 00:08:41.880 Laura Daniels: It doesn't match the calendar, yes. 90 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.710 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And you weren't there. 91 00:08:43.760 --> 00:08:47.010 Laura Daniels: Several of us were. 92 00:08:47.010 --> 00:08:48.799 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Are there people still there? Should I… 93 00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:49.230 Laura Daniels: No. 94 00:08:49.230 --> 00:08:57.300 Tara Barnett (Index Data): resolve this? Perfect. Okay. All right, I'm so sorry about the mix-up. I will look and make sure. I must have just copied it from the previous week. 95 00:08:57.650 --> 00:08:59.460 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Sorry about that. 96 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:01.189 Laura Daniels: What's a rational thing to do. 97 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:02.900 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I… yeah. 98 00:09:03.610 --> 00:09:06.459 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And yet, and yet I have led so many astray. 99 00:09:06.670 --> 00:09:09.639 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Terribly embarrassed, thank you for your patience. 100 00:09:10.770 --> 00:09:24.600 Tara Barnett (Index Data): I will hang my head in shame for the rest of the meeting. Okay, so, great, we went through the housekeeping. The one thing that's probably important is, I'm gonna cancel March 9th, because I have a conflict, unless there are any objections. 101 00:09:24.880 --> 00:09:29.519 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And, Jennifer Eustace is here to talk about, record deletion. 102 00:09:30.400 --> 00:09:31.519 Tara Barnett (Index Data): That's what we got. 103 00:09:32.680 --> 00:09:34.379 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Did you want to share your screen? 104 00:09:34.810 --> 00:09:52.450 Jennifer Eustis: You know, I did not prepare a presentation for this, so I thought, you know, and one of the reasons I did not was, well, I was, you know, lack of time, sorry, but also, we're at the very beginning of this conversation. 105 00:09:52.450 --> 00:09:59.509 Jennifer Eustis: And bits and pieces have been happening, well, in bits and pieces, like, over the last 106 00:09:59.510 --> 00:10:04.850 Jennifer Eustis: probably 2 years, but I… what's really lacking is kind of this… 107 00:10:04.850 --> 00:10:22.059 Jennifer Eustis: holistic approach to, you know, how do we handle DELETE? Not just for Folio, but also how Folio interacts with, third-party, integrations, such as discovery, reporting, and the like. 108 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:31.650 Jennifer Eustis: So… and I really want to thank… I did post this on Slack, and I think it was Owen and maybe Brooks. 109 00:10:31.650 --> 00:10:33.999 Jennifer Eustis: Who highlighted that this came up 110 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:51.779 Jennifer Eustis: Actually, several years ago, or maybe, I don't know. Time is fluid for me after COVID, so several years ago could be, like, a year and a half ago. Who knows? Back in time, this did come up through technical counsel, and there really was not a resolution. 111 00:10:51.780 --> 00:10:54.620 Jennifer Eustis: On how to handle set for delete. 112 00:10:54.640 --> 00:11:03.220 Jennifer Eustis: So, I just want to give people, a perspective of where data import has been, and what it's discussing now. 113 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:13.080 Jennifer Eustis: Oh, 2020. There you go. I mean, that's a couple years… 6 years ago, so… so there you go, that's a couple years. Thank you, Maura. 114 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:30.570 Jennifer Eustis: Recently, we had on the new feature request list for data import, deleting holdings and items. And the discussion kind of went in tangentially and very quickly to, well, how do we handle instances? 115 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:47.340 Jennifer Eustis: So we went back to that conversation because we thought, well, we aren't talking about instances, right now we're just talking about holdings and items. So we developed a spreadsheet, and I put the link in chat. 116 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:57.640 Jennifer Eustis: of what are the use cases for deleting in-batch holdings and items. So right now, we can hard delete. I think it's a hard delete. 117 00:11:57.740 --> 00:12:16.250 Jennifer Eustis: Manually, and one by one, a holding and an item. So, you're in folio, you go to folio inventory app, you navigate to maybe an item record or a holdings record, and you can actually do actions and delete that. 118 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:31.140 Jennifer Eustis: At this moment, I'm pretty sure it's a hard delete. I'm not sure if there's something like a tombstone or a record that says, you know, item record with UUID, blah blah blah has been deleted. 119 00:12:31.140 --> 00:12:37.979 Jennifer Eustis: So, we couldn't get information on that. So, you'll see from this spreadsheet, the rationale really is 120 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:54.500 Jennifer Eustis: You know, you're dealing with mistakes, you know, these are records that aren't tied to anything financial, circulation, requests, or any of that. A lot of e-resource management, where, you know, you're dealing with 121 00:12:54.500 --> 00:13:04.800 Jennifer Eustis: subscription packages, you know, the items come in, and they go out, so you want to easily remove all of these. But in the discussion, 122 00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:06.849 Jennifer Eustis: Especially, not only for this. 123 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:31.699 Jennifer Eustis: but also when we were looking at the phases on how to implement the mark for delete discussion, and this is another spreadsheet that we started in data import that looks at that behavior, and this is the behavior in Sunflower where we have the flag set for delete, and then it changes the position 5 of the leader, and a mark SRS to D. 124 00:13:32.090 --> 00:13:38.270 Jennifer Eustis: We included in that discussion instances, and… 125 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:51.889 Jennifer Eustis: In all of our discussions, one of the major concerns was that there are no guardrails. So what happens if your record is linked to, 126 00:13:52.060 --> 00:14:07.060 Jennifer Eustis: You know, an order record, which is maybe still open, or even if it's closed, it's linked to an invoice in some… some capacity, or it's linked to a request, or perhaps it has something to do in 127 00:14:07.060 --> 00:14:10.719 Jennifer Eustis: courses. So, there are a lot of dependencies. 128 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:33.160 Jennifer Eustis: And because of the business logic of Folio, these dependencies in terms of which way they're going from which app is not always clear, and that's not highlighted right now. So a lot of people are, in the discussion in data import, were really like, well, you kind of have to slow down, and before we have 129 00:14:33.160 --> 00:14:40.740 Jennifer Eustis: like a hard delete, or even a soft delete. We really need to, in some way, ensure that we 130 00:14:40.780 --> 00:14:56.070 Jennifer Eustis: guard against these dependencies. So we're not just whole-scaling, you know, getting rid of records, and then messing up logic in a different app, or even messing up, kind of, 131 00:14:56.170 --> 00:15:15.819 Jennifer Eustis: data that would be used by third-party integrations, like Discovery. So, all of a sudden, you know, if the record is no longer there, can EDS still display that? And I think it… it only doesn't display it, it's based on suppression, so if nothing's there, then… 132 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:24.220 Jennifer Eustis: You could have these really funky, kind of corrupt kind of records, either in discovery, reporting. 133 00:15:24.220 --> 00:15:30.920 Jennifer Eustis: or, elsewhere, depending on the integration you use, perhaps ILL as well. 134 00:15:30.930 --> 00:15:32.680 Jennifer Eustis: So, 135 00:15:33.020 --> 00:15:51.300 Jennifer Eustis: we saw in data import that this discussion was much larger than just data import. You know, how do you just delete something in batch? Because it involves, many more subject areas than… than what our, you know. 136 00:15:51.330 --> 00:16:01.339 Jennifer Eustis: members were involved with. Some were involved, but not all of them. So we are bringing it to Cross Up to see if maybe we can… 137 00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:15.349 Jennifer Eustis: like, find a path forward on how to navigate this… this functionality? You know, is it functionality that we want? You know, can we come to terms with 138 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:34.330 Jennifer Eustis: you know, maybe a soft delete for instances, which we do have a little bit, but, you know, what does a hard delete mean? You know, do we implement tombstones, that interact with our third-party integrations, and even maybe an, I don't know, an archived version of the record? 139 00:16:34.330 --> 00:16:43.710 Jennifer Eustis: So, that's why we're bringing the conversation here. And it really is just a conversation. So, I think it was Owen… 140 00:16:43.860 --> 00:17:00.650 Jennifer Eustis: If you did any reading, there was a technical… Council… Did, not that… 141 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:05.910 Jennifer Eustis: It was the… Here, I'll just copy the link here. 142 00:17:06.869 --> 00:17:19.760 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, I think it was… and this one, the… yeah, so we have that, if you've read that. So anyway, so I'd like to open it up for discussion, see what people think, and see… 143 00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:32.960 Jennifer Eustis: you know, I'm not sure if we can decide on how to move forward now, or maybe we… maybe the path forward is more discussions, or to reach out to more SIGs. 144 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:39.899 Jennifer Eustis: So, that's… that is my brief presentation for y'all, and I'll open it up for discussion. 145 00:17:46.340 --> 00:17:47.370 Jennifer Eustis: Vivian. 146 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:53.210 Vivian Gould: I had put this in the chat, but, the… 147 00:17:54.520 --> 00:18:02.180 Vivian Gould: the question of dependencies is compounded for those sites who are using ECS, because… 148 00:18:02.840 --> 00:18:06.139 Vivian Gould: The tenants can't see each other's data. 149 00:18:06.300 --> 00:18:17.119 Vivian Gould: I mean, in some cases, can see that another library has holdings, but can't see the holdings. And so, when you talk about, you know, order data. 150 00:18:17.300 --> 00:18:20.119 Vivian Gould: And order record dependencies. 151 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.269 Vivian Gould: I mean, that is… 152 00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:29.660 Vivian Gould: One tenant won't even know if another tenant has order data attached to a given instance. 153 00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:36.910 Vivian Gould: And so… My… and my saying that isn't coming from a place of, oh, you know. 154 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:41.560 Vivian Gould: This is a bad idea. I'm, I'm, you know, it was actually part of the original discussion. 155 00:18:41.850 --> 00:18:46.849 Vivian Gould: It's more that we need to make sure that there are fail-safes built in. 156 00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:56.139 Vivian Gould: So, if we're gonna do a hard delete, or frankly, even if a soft… even a soft delete, there should be some… there should be some… some… 157 00:18:56.890 --> 00:19:01.259 Vivian Gould: Guardrails built in to be able to say, you know, oh, you know. 158 00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:17.309 Vivian Gould: Folio is not going to allow you to do this because there are depend… because this record has other things that are dependent upon it not being deleted. I don't really know the right words for this, but that's the… that's the general idea. 159 00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:23.919 Vivian Gould: I think Maura, I think your hand was up next. 160 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:32.869 Maura Byrne: I'll jump in. Yeah, I just thought I would mention that, in the, 161 00:19:33.370 --> 00:19:37.750 Maura Byrne: In user management, 162 00:19:38.110 --> 00:19:46.190 Maura Byrne: One of the libraries created a, they created a bit of code that, you know, before you delete a user. 163 00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:59.490 Maura Byrne: it checks for dependencies first, so it checks to see if there are any loans, or any fines, or anything else that is connected to any of the other apps. And I think that, 164 00:20:00.150 --> 00:20:05.860 Maura Byrne: That if there was something like that, that's sort of, like. 165 00:20:06.110 --> 00:20:09.850 Maura Byrne: That connected to any of the other apps, and, you know, just sort of, like. 166 00:20:10.260 --> 00:20:14.460 Maura Byrne: It just looked for wherever else that record is touching. 167 00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:23.059 Maura Byrne: be it orders, or discovery, or loans, God forbid, when you're deleting… when you're deleting it, that, 168 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:30.529 Maura Byrne: you know, that… It would check for dependencies, and then, like, in the user's app, it would, like. 169 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:41.689 Maura Byrne: It'll pop up the, you know, they'll have a modal window that pops up and says, this is, you know, these are the things that are happening, and, you know. 170 00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:48.640 Maura Byrne: So it's, I think if you had something like that, I think that, you know, 171 00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:54.229 Maura Byrne: There could be… I think that would be, helpful. 172 00:20:56.760 --> 00:20:57.930 Jennifer Eustis: Christy? 173 00:20:59.650 --> 00:21:11.880 Christie Thomas (she/her): So I'm speaking up, as the person who actually brought the use case back to the Data Import SIG, and as a co-convener of the Data Import SIG. 174 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:23.419 Christie Thomas (she/her): And I think that it is a real… it is a complex issue, and some of the conversations are happening at cross-purposes, because… 175 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:25.790 Christie Thomas (she/her): We have two… 176 00:21:25.860 --> 00:21:35.449 Christie Thomas (she/her): Completely different use cases, or let's say, buckets or types of use cases for needing to delete records. 177 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:49.390 Christie Thomas (she/her): You know, one of those is a part of the natural life cycle of resource management. You've withdrawn a title from your collection, and, you know, the set for deletion 178 00:21:49.510 --> 00:22:08.300 Christie Thomas (she/her): functionality that is being developed is kind of in support of that workflow. And that is different from needing to just make records gone. I can just say that our biggest use case is needing to 179 00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:18.290 Christie Thomas (she/her): Correct an import gone awry. Needing to delete junk data. It's so easy to create a lot of corrupt data in folio. 180 00:22:18.290 --> 00:22:42.479 Christie Thomas (she/her): And then it just is going to be there forever. And there's a lot of work that has to happen so that that junk data doesn't interfere with other processes. You have to go in and you have to strip identifiers, you have to suppress things, you can delete things, but you have to go in and do it manually. And I think that for a lot of these use cases. 181 00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:50.869 Christie Thomas (she/her): it doesn't matter if there's a dependency, that all the things need to be gone, right, in an ideal world. 182 00:22:51.030 --> 00:23:02.880 Christie Thomas (she/her): So, tackling this from multiple perspectives at the same time, I think, is important, rather than… 183 00:23:03.300 --> 00:23:08.050 Christie Thomas (she/her): It feels like there's an assumption that 184 00:23:09.610 --> 00:23:20.170 Christie Thomas (she/her): you know, dependencies should always be a stopgap, and we shouldn't be able to delete anything that is attached to the order. And that is just not the case. 185 00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:39.300 Christie Thomas (she/her): We need to be thoughtful and intentional about it and understand the implications of doing so, but, you know, there are certain… if you create an order in batch, if we get, say, a batch of 400 orders from a vendor, and, you know. 186 00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:55.140 Christie Thomas (she/her): certain… I can't, for the life of me, off the top of my head, you know, say it's this property or that property, but once an order has been created, you can't actually edit all of the fields in the order, and 187 00:23:55.320 --> 00:24:01.079 Christie Thomas (she/her): The only way to recreate those orders is to delete them. 188 00:24:01.080 --> 00:24:16.490 Christie Thomas (she/her): The only way we have of doing that is doing it manually, and we have to do that with the, you know, the holdings and the items in inventory, too, because these things are coming in with barcodes. We can't just suppress them. We have to delete them, because 189 00:24:16.490 --> 00:24:35.150 Christie Thomas (she/her): the barcode is there. We can't create another item with that same barcode. And if we have to recreate the orders, we're going to have to recreate the inventory, at least how data import works. We're going to have to recreate all of the records. So what we really need is for everything just to be gone. 190 00:24:35.260 --> 00:24:46.139 Christie Thomas (she/her): And… I don't know where that gets us, other than I just want to be sure that 191 00:24:46.230 --> 00:25:04.960 Christie Thomas (she/her): We're not limiting ourselves to what I think is the most obvious use case, which is we had a resource. It was a real thing. It represented something. It's gone from our collection, and now we need to, you know, manage, manage that phase of the resource lifecycle. 192 00:25:05.040 --> 00:25:18.399 Christie Thomas (she/her): Versus, we have junk data, it needs to be gone, we need to clean it up so that we can actually load the orders and, you know, get the money encumbered on the right funds, and then load the invoice and get it paid. 193 00:25:21.850 --> 00:25:22.690 Jennifer Eustis: Owen. 194 00:25:24.530 --> 00:25:35.980 Owen Stephens: Oh… I… the… the thing, like, and so I… I kind of get that Christy is… 195 00:25:36.810 --> 00:25:38.450 Owen Stephens: Making an argument that… 196 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:47.969 Owen Stephens: perhaps we shouldn't overcomplicate this, and I think that's a fair point. I want to just come back to what Mara said, and say… 197 00:25:48.550 --> 00:25:51.719 Owen Stephens: And I think the same goes for what Christy just said, actually. 198 00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:06.889 Owen Stephens: The problem, like, even if we're talking about deleting everything that's… that's there, the problem with folio architecture, and this is why it's a deep technical discussion, and why the previous discussion was so hard. 199 00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:11.829 Owen Stephens: For those of you who were involved in it, if there's somebody else on the call. 200 00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:15.079 Owen Stephens: And long, is because 201 00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:29.419 Owen Stephens: By their nature, the folio modules do not know anything about each other, so it is not possible to know whether another module references something that is in your module. And in the sense that 202 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:42.539 Owen Stephens: christie's talking about getting rid of everything, It might be… Slightly easier, but the same… 203 00:26:42.840 --> 00:26:46.319 Owen Stephens: problem could occur. Like, deleting everything 204 00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:52.530 Owen Stephens: You can only delete everything if you know that. 205 00:26:53.540 --> 00:26:56.029 Owen Stephens: It is all connected in the first place. 206 00:26:57.120 --> 00:26:58.030 Owen Stephens: And… 207 00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:09.289 Owen Stephens: so you have to be careful about the way in which you're exploring that data. I think in the example that you were giving, Christy, obviously that data is all connected. 208 00:27:10.100 --> 00:27:20.949 Owen Stephens: But it's about knowing where those connections are stored, and making sure that you're not deleting the thing that knows what it's connected to before you delete the other things that are connected to it, because 209 00:27:21.140 --> 00:27:26.639 Owen Stephens: A order knows it's connected to inventory, but an inventory doesn't know it's connected to an order. 210 00:27:26.750 --> 00:27:39.060 Owen Stephens: So… the… in terms of data that's being stored. So… I… I feel… kind of… 211 00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:50.530 Owen Stephens: from the… I also think, actually, although I do understand what you've just said, Christy, I don't understand how you would know you were definitely not deleting something that mattered. 212 00:27:50.850 --> 00:27:54.800 Owen Stephens: in that… I guess you just… 213 00:27:54.910 --> 00:28:02.550 Owen Stephens: Have to be careful that something didn't exist before, that that job that you've just run that's created all of this extra stuff. 214 00:28:03.090 --> 00:28:06.799 Owen Stephens: That could interact with stuff that already exists as well, so… 215 00:28:07.020 --> 00:28:13.209 Owen Stephens: I guess that… I guess… I mean, you know this, I don't want to be… I'm not trying to teach people how to suck eggs, but… 216 00:28:13.430 --> 00:28:19.160 Owen Stephens: what I would say is, like, there are… 217 00:28:19.370 --> 00:28:24.970 Owen Stephens: there are definite architectural issues here in supporting Delete. 218 00:28:25.090 --> 00:28:34.150 Owen Stephens: And having all of these interconnected things know about each other is something that Polio is designed Against. 219 00:28:34.290 --> 00:28:40.550 Owen Stephens: Now, You can obviously… Change that, 220 00:28:41.090 --> 00:28:48.929 Owen Stephens: or you can implement things like the ModFQM which is… 221 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:58.999 Owen Stephens: there to know how things… well, that somehow bridges that gap to some extent. it's not, I think a… 222 00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:07.490 Owen Stephens: it's not a universally agreed on solution, but it does do some of that work for you. But I think that… 223 00:29:09.070 --> 00:29:10.050 Owen Stephens: the… 224 00:29:11.410 --> 00:29:19.329 Owen Stephens: Yeah, I don't see how we have this discussion without people who are deep in the architecture of folio in the room, who can 225 00:29:19.710 --> 00:29:23.830 Owen Stephens: like, say, well, how is this going to actually work in a technical sense? Because… 226 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:29.250 Owen Stephens: I feel like we know what the… what it is the users want, but we… 227 00:29:30.020 --> 00:29:33.339 Owen Stephens: You know, that has never got as far as implementation. 228 00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:36.100 Owen Stephens: And so we have to look at the reasons why not. 229 00:29:37.510 --> 00:29:41.130 Owen Stephens: I think, and I think it's because it's technically difficult and a lot of effort. 230 00:29:41.830 --> 00:29:48.820 Owen Stephens: And maybe we haven't got the right technical solutions in place, I don't know. But, yeah. 231 00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:53.749 Owen Stephens: I think I'm… in terms of having a conversation here. 232 00:29:56.370 --> 00:30:03.450 Owen Stephens: it's very easy for… well, not easy, but I think we can agree on the requirements much more easily than we've been able to implement. 233 00:30:04.270 --> 00:30:09.479 Owen Stephens: work that actually fulfills those requirements, and I think that's the… been the blocker in the past. 234 00:30:10.190 --> 00:30:12.250 Owen Stephens: Yeah, I'll stop there. 235 00:30:14.510 --> 00:30:17.939 Jennifer Eustis: Christine, did you want to have a chance to respond? 236 00:30:18.820 --> 00:30:24.519 Christie Thomas (she/her): I can let Martin go first, because, they've had their hand up for quite a while. 237 00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:34.889 Martin Scholz: Yeah, well, Owen… already said a lot of what I wanted to say, 238 00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:42.039 Martin Scholz: And I want to add that, I think maybe, I mean, if you want to have checks… 239 00:30:42.390 --> 00:30:50.259 Martin Scholz: before deleting, I mean… as Owen said, you basically… The modules can't know 240 00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:57.440 Martin Scholz: everything that is within a folio system that is… that has dependencies on a record. 241 00:30:57.550 --> 00:31:04.529 Martin Scholz: But… If you want to have, from a practical standpoint, maybe you could say that for each record. 242 00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:13.770 Martin Scholz: type, like items, instances, users, and so on. You could define a set of maybe, standard… 243 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.239 Martin Scholz: Modules are standard dependencies that get, get checked. 244 00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:28.800 Martin Scholz: But… then maybe… A lot of libraries will use modules or apps that also have 245 00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:33.819 Martin Scholz: Dependents outside of that set, and that also have dependencies, and then… 246 00:31:34.030 --> 00:31:42.090 Martin Scholz: You will maybe get the false impression that, before deletion, every dependency is checked. 247 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:46.340 Martin Scholz: And then, suddenly, those apps that are not considered the 248 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.990 Martin Scholz: The… yeah, so the… the link is… is broken. 249 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:53.310 Martin Scholz: I'm young. 250 00:31:54.550 --> 00:31:56.740 Martin Scholz: practical point of view, I think it… 251 00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:02.200 Martin Scholz: Maybe it would be okay to say, well, only the… Maybe, maybe… 252 00:32:03.270 --> 00:32:12.010 Martin Scholz: You can say, maybe the modules that are within the official release, or whatever, they get checked, because there you know 253 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.990 Martin Scholz: If there can be dependencies or something like this. 254 00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.769 Martin Scholz: But… Jennifer mentioned before that, 255 00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:24.970 Martin Scholz: There could be the possibility of some kind of tombstone. 256 00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:29.870 Martin Scholz: And I really, like the idea that it's… 257 00:32:30.220 --> 00:32:31.649 Martin Scholz: That you have some kind of 258 00:32:32.140 --> 00:32:38.120 Martin Scholz: Functionality that says, okay, there was this, this, this, record was there. 259 00:32:38.340 --> 00:32:41.430 Martin Scholz: It got deleted, and 260 00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:48.570 Martin Scholz: And that the user gets… gets to know that this is not a… 261 00:32:49.110 --> 00:32:51.519 Martin Scholz: An error within the system, but yeah. 262 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:56.089 Martin Scholz: That someone entered false data, but… 263 00:32:56.630 --> 00:33:00.410 Martin Scholz: There… there's just something missing because it was deleted. 264 00:33:01.520 --> 00:33:06.060 Martin Scholz: And if you have, if you delete, for example, the… 265 00:33:06.490 --> 00:33:10.870 Martin Scholz: Inventory data, and then have an ordered, 266 00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:16.700 Martin Scholz: You can just display that, the corresponding instances, or whatever. 267 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:25.060 Martin Scholz: Actually, actually got deleted, and not that they… Just don't display or, yeah. 268 00:33:26.830 --> 00:33:28.420 Martin Scholz: Okay, that's… that's what I want. 269 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.870 Martin Scholz: at… 270 00:33:33.070 --> 00:33:33.939 Martin Scholz: I don't know. 271 00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:35.080 Martin Scholz: Oh, Kristen. 272 00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:37.660 Laura Daniels: I think Christy. 273 00:33:39.790 --> 00:33:49.280 Christie Thomas (she/her): So, I… I hear everything that's being said. You know, it's difficult, it's hard, there's a lot of risk. 274 00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:57.099 Christie Thomas (she/her): What I will say is that, this is functionality 275 00:33:57.110 --> 00:34:08.349 Christie Thomas (she/her): that Folio should have. It is expected functionality. Other library systems have it. Other library systems that we've had have had it. We've been able to do this before. 276 00:34:08.350 --> 00:34:17.600 Christie Thomas (she/her): So how do we move it forward to figure out how to make it happen? And I think that that's what we need to, talk about 277 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:32.140 Christie Thomas (she/her): that's… I think that that is what I would like to see us thinking about how to make this happen. I will also say that, one, 278 00:34:33.139 --> 00:34:37.919 Christie Thomas (she/her): These dependency issues have been resolved, at least 279 00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:50.920 Christie Thomas (she/her): partially, for other types of functionality that has been implemented. I'm thinking about the ability to maintain relationships when 280 00:34:51.090 --> 00:35:06.190 Christie Thomas (she/her): certain relationships change in inventory. You move a holdings from one instance to a next, and you can now maintain the relationship with the order. So, you know, it is possible to… 281 00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:14.479 Christie Thomas (she/her): to… Be able to achieve this, and I am not going to speak to how that gets achieved. 282 00:35:14.540 --> 00:35:28.479 Christie Thomas (she/her): The other thing that I will say is that, you know, we're deleting records left and right via the API, and I don't actually know exactly what you mean by tombstone, but, you know. 283 00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:50.330 Christie Thomas (she/her): all versions of… all previous versions of, like, say we… we delete holdings in batch on a regular basis, via the API, and those holdings are still there in the system, they're just not available via the UI. They're in the data in the backend in a table, I forget what the table is called. 284 00:35:50.330 --> 00:35:57.490 Christie Thomas (she/her): But I think it's history, or archive, or something like that. 285 00:35:57.540 --> 00:36:07.410 Christie Thomas (she/her): So these records are still available. You can look them up in the data, and get them. They're just not… 286 00:36:08.060 --> 00:36:26.180 Christie Thomas (she/her): active any longer, and I don't think that there's an undelete function. So, you know, I just want to say that, you know, I think that there's a lot of groundwork that we can leverage, for doing this, and, 287 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:29.250 Christie Thomas (she/her): So… 288 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:37.870 Christie Thomas (she/her): I can see this data. I'm going to Jennifer, who's saying that might be a feature of MetaDB, and… 289 00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:54.739 Christie Thomas (she/her): Yeah, you know, that actually could be it. But I… I… I do think that, there is, there, there actually is a table in Folio via the API. 290 00:36:54.740 --> 00:37:03.370 Christie Thomas (she/her): where, records that have been deleted, the holdings and items that have been deleted via the API, 291 00:37:03.460 --> 00:37:06.849 Christie Thomas (she/her): You know, go to, you know, out to pasture. 292 00:37:07.080 --> 00:37:15.980 Christie Thomas (she/her): I can find the name of that table, for you, or the name of that, endpoint for looking that up. 293 00:37:16.160 --> 00:37:35.860 Christie Thomas (she/her): Anyway, I will… I will hand it off, to Laura now, but I just wanted to say, I do think that there's functionality that at least gets us part of the way in thinking about how to resolve some of these problems, and I think that it is imperative that we figure out how to move forward, because functionally. 294 00:37:36.310 --> 00:37:45.070 Christie Thomas (she/her): you know, we should be able to do this. And I don't want the end of the story to be, it's hard, and it's a lot of work. 295 00:37:45.270 --> 00:37:52.900 Christie Thomas (she/her): I mean, that actually may be the end of the story, but anyway. 296 00:37:53.070 --> 00:37:53.790 Christie Thomas (she/her): Thanks. 297 00:37:55.560 --> 00:37:56.790 Jennifer Eustis: Laura? 298 00:37:56.790 --> 00:38:11.049 Laura Daniels: Yeah, so I've been part of conversations about this for as long as I can remember, and it is hard, and I feel like part of the challenge is that every time I have 299 00:38:11.580 --> 00:38:22.699 Laura Daniels: been part of a discussion about addressing this. We've tried to think about it holistically, which is great, but we've tried to figure out how can we solve all of this all at once? And to Christy's point, I think 300 00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:39.590 Laura Daniels: I'm… what I was… I made a note to myself that I… I don't think this group can solve this, but I think this group could… could come up with a plan for, okay, we'd like to address this piece first, and then we would like to address this part, etc. I do, 301 00:38:39.670 --> 00:38:56.019 Laura Daniels: Christy, you said other systems deal with this, and yes, they do, but I've also worked with systems that dealt with it very badly. So there are lots of challenges, even with an integrated system, and Folio, as we know, as microservices, or at least was 302 00:38:56.170 --> 00:39:00.069 Laura Daniels: Envision to be microservices and functions as sort of a… 303 00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:09.720 Laura Daniels: I don't know how it functions. We don't need to go there. But what I was thinking was… what I would propose is 304 00:39:09.930 --> 00:39:21.519 Laura Daniels: For a plan would be that we start with making it easier to do a hard delete without guardrails, making it very clear that it is a hard delete without guardrails. 305 00:39:21.890 --> 00:39:26.140 Laura Daniels: And that would allow us 306 00:39:26.510 --> 00:39:31.030 Laura Daniels: To delete the records that we know we really just need to get rid of. 307 00:39:31.620 --> 00:39:37.189 Laura Daniels: And then we start thinking about how… we could… 308 00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:49.109 Laura Daniels: realistically identify dependencies. I don't see it being something that, like, each app in folio can identify. I think there has to be some 309 00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:57.809 Laura Daniels: some workflow, some app that just is identifying dependencies, because as Owen… Owen says, the… 310 00:39:57.810 --> 00:40:08.759 Laura Daniels: the apps in folio often don't know anything about each other. And that is the hard part, but we… we trip ourselves up when we feel like, well, we can't… 311 00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:28.659 Laura Daniels: develop… we can't let anyone delete through the UI in any way until we've figured out how to solve the whole thing. And I would love to see us solve this bit by bit, while… while making sure that when people come to Folio, they don't assume that they… that Delete is doing things that it isn't doing. 312 00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:33.269 Laura Daniels: Owen, I see you're next. 313 00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:45.239 Owen Stephens: So, I just want to be really clear. I'm not making an argument at all that we… this should not be part of the functionality in folio. I mean, it… 314 00:40:45.340 --> 00:40:52.089 Owen Stephens: I… I… yeah, and it's not my place, and I have, you know, no interest in… in… 315 00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:59.080 Owen Stephens: In arguing against a perfectly rational and sensible and reasonable set of functionality. 316 00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:05.599 Owen Stephens: all I'm saying is that the problems we've encountered In getting this done, are not… 317 00:41:07.230 --> 00:41:14.700 Owen Stephens: About a group like this agreeing that it must be… that it should be… Part of the functionality. 318 00:41:14.950 --> 00:41:24.040 Owen Stephens: the… And I guess I wonder, maybe a starting point for this 319 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:36.360 Owen Stephens: for me is, like, well, like, there is, you know, that work that I pointed to, that… and as Christy, you said as well, like, that have been implemented. 320 00:41:37.570 --> 00:41:45.680 Owen Stephens: in places, the work that's necessary, and that document that, that Jennifer and I linked to, that says how we should do it. 321 00:41:45.770 --> 00:41:58.419 Owen Stephens: But if you delete something, you publish a Kafka message to say it's been deleted, and then any other module that's interested in that can consume that Kafka message and know that deletion has happened. 322 00:42:00.120 --> 00:42:01.179 Owen Stephens: And that's… 323 00:42:01.390 --> 00:42:08.239 Owen Stephens: how that previous discussion said it should be done, and that's what the Tech Council signed off on. 324 00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:17.719 Owen Stephens: is, like, So I guess the question is, like, what… what is… what are the things that's stopping 325 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.930 Owen Stephens: Deletion of any kind, with or without that messaging. 326 00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:28.389 Owen Stephens: happening, because you can delete things in Polio, right? It's… it's a decision to not allow deletion of things. 327 00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:37.149 Owen Stephens: And if… yeah, I mean… If you… if it doesn't… 328 00:42:37.780 --> 00:42:46.950 Owen Stephens: Especially if you… if you want to be very… Decide to take a… What's the word? 329 00:42:47.950 --> 00:42:49.260 Owen Stephens: I, 330 00:42:49.850 --> 00:42:56.579 Owen Stephens: Reasonably relaxed view of whether it's going to cause you any problems to delete something from the system. 331 00:42:57.020 --> 00:43:05.789 Owen Stephens: But certainly, there are things all over Thrall that you can delete, right? So, I guess maybe the question here is, like, what's stopping that happening in this case, and… 332 00:43:06.740 --> 00:43:11.560 Owen Stephens: What needs… like, who is it that needs to be able to… Action that. 333 00:43:12.950 --> 00:43:14.390 Owen Stephens: Which… yeah. 334 00:43:23.810 --> 00:43:31.619 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, and those are really interesting comments, because I think, you know, we can delete invoices, we can delete… 335 00:43:31.870 --> 00:43:38.460 Jennifer Eustis: POLs, invoice lines… I think we can delete agreements, I think… 336 00:43:38.700 --> 00:43:45.680 Jennifer Eustis: even individual users you can delete. So I think each app, you can pretty much… 337 00:43:45.810 --> 00:43:48.780 Jennifer Eustis: Delete one by one… 338 00:43:49.120 --> 00:44:04.979 Jennifer Eustis: either a combination of the records that are there, or all of them. For inventory, we can already delete holdings and items, and I just looked at the bulk edit high-level roadmap. 339 00:44:05.030 --> 00:44:10.179 Jennifer Eustis: So, for batch, this is scheduled for post-umbrella leaf. 340 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:18.160 Jennifer Eustis: I, I think, when you get to instances, I think there was just… 341 00:44:19.290 --> 00:44:21.260 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, I mean, there's, like… 342 00:44:21.520 --> 00:44:30.280 Jennifer Eustis: Well, one, there were two concerns that I saw from the discussion here and in data import, is that we need more than one way than just bulk edit. 343 00:44:30.390 --> 00:44:36.499 Jennifer Eustis: So there was an expressed interest in having data import do that. 344 00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:39.670 Jennifer Eustis: Do the deletion. 345 00:44:39.870 --> 00:44:57.079 Jennifer Eustis: And then there is also, like, you know, how do we account for the dependencies? I mean, it's one of the reasons why I like the tombstone idea, because the tombstone can say, hey, at one time I existed, you know, and then if that has… if that's encoded in a certain way. 346 00:44:57.080 --> 00:45:14.880 Jennifer Eustis: you know, that can be communicated off to all the dependencies, and if a new dependency tries to go to that record, you know, there can be this flag saying, oh, wait, you know, I've been deleted, so you can't do this, or something like that. 347 00:45:15.020 --> 00:45:21.630 Jennifer Eustis: But you're, you're right, maybe… maybe we should go back. I, you know, at this point, I'm not sure… 348 00:45:21.950 --> 00:45:25.359 Jennifer Eustis: Because we all want deletion in some way, and there's… 349 00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:35.150 Jennifer Eustis: Multiple use cases, you know, for, you know, preserving some of the dependencies, but also just getting rid of junk data. 350 00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:43.350 Jennifer Eustis: So maybe we need to go back to the technical council. Another idea that I had was that… 351 00:45:43.470 --> 00:45:47.410 Jennifer Eustis: The Product Council is looking for ideas from the SIGS. 352 00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:50.100 Jennifer Eustis: On, you know, questions 353 00:45:50.330 --> 00:46:00.299 Jennifer Eustis: for, Folio in general on how to implement stuff, so I thought of maybe bringing this up in that conversation. 354 00:46:03.030 --> 00:46:09.959 Jennifer Eustis: And then, Owen, I'm reading your… your, chat. 355 00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:13.389 Jennifer Eustis: Does anyone else have any? 356 00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.150 Jennifer Eustis: Any thoughts to share? 357 00:46:29.610 --> 00:46:44.300 Jennifer Eustis: And I noticed, Owen, you mentioned prioritization, and Tara, you mentioned that as well. I was wondering if you could expand on that idea of prioritization, rather than being… not being possible. 358 00:46:45.390 --> 00:46:49.690 Owen Stephens: Well, I mean, it's just, like, who's gonna do the work? Like, who's… 359 00:46:49.870 --> 00:46:59.109 Owen Stephens: I mean, I say who's… where does the… where does the resource come from to get the work done, is maybe the best way of saying this. 360 00:47:00.470 --> 00:47:03.460 Owen Stephens: In cereals, that work has been… 361 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:12.250 Owen Stephens: was paid for by a combination of GBV and cube, originally. 362 00:47:12.380 --> 00:47:20.460 Owen Stephens: If they had said, And… We have to have… Batch deletion in serials. 363 00:47:21.550 --> 00:47:24.820 Owen Stephens: And this is how it should work, then that would have been done. 364 00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:26.370 Owen Stephens: I mean… 365 00:47:27.060 --> 00:47:32.350 Owen Stephens: Given there was resource available to do it, and it was the most important thing to be done at that time. 366 00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:43.209 Owen Stephens: And… Obviously, different modules have different methods of prioritizing what gets done next, but 367 00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.329 Owen Stephens: Generally, at the part of it, in my view. 368 00:47:47.330 --> 00:47:54.929 Owen Stephens: somebody's having to pay for that to happen, so… it… It gets prioritized when 369 00:47:57.260 --> 00:47:59.709 Owen Stephens: There is resource available to do it. 370 00:48:01.740 --> 00:48:07.349 Owen Stephens: And if you pay for it, then you are providing the resource available to do it, so therefore you 371 00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:10.329 Owen Stephens: you can prioritize it. 372 00:48:11.300 --> 00:48:20.600 Owen Stephens: That's not to say there aren't other mechanisms for prioritizing things, like the SIGs prioritize things, and they're often added to the list of things to get done. 373 00:48:20.750 --> 00:48:27.050 Owen Stephens: And they do get done. But it… that's a slightly less direct route than 374 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:35.030 Owen Stephens: money on the table. Certainly in my experience, and certainly for the modules that I'm responsible for, 375 00:48:36.810 --> 00:48:46.989 Owen Stephens: the… Yeah. So… Yeah, I see Christie's. 376 00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:57.440 Christie Thomas (she/her): Yeah, no, I mean, I can see that prioritization and money is a big part of this, and… 377 00:48:57.970 --> 00:49:01.400 Christie Thomas (she/her): I guess, you know, my question is… 378 00:49:01.620 --> 00:49:04.989 Christie Thomas (she/her): Is it the sense of this group that… 379 00:49:05.470 --> 00:49:10.490 Christie Thomas (she/her): Prioritization is the blocker for this, or… 380 00:49:10.700 --> 00:49:22.060 Christie Thomas (she/her): Is it that there isn't, like, consensus and a holistic plan for how individual modules should handle deletes. 381 00:49:22.620 --> 00:49:32.759 Christie Thomas (she/her): Like, should… do we need principles that are shared across Folio for deletion and, you know. 382 00:49:33.020 --> 00:49:37.359 Christie Thomas (she/her): interdependency between modules. 383 00:49:39.200 --> 00:49:55.309 Christie Thomas (she/her): So that, you know, if the prioritization is happening in the individual SIGs and, you know, the modules that they have stewardship for, that they can feel empowered to move forward with that. 384 00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:02.010 Christie Thomas (she/her): I think a part of this is, like, the lack of a process. 385 00:50:02.260 --> 00:50:03.780 Christie Thomas (she/her): And… 386 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:23.220 Christie Thomas (she/her): like, how do we get this to move forward? Because, you know, we are prioritizing things, but I guess in the data imports SIG, we don't feel like we are empowered to prioritize this, that there's a lot of unknowns and a lot of, 387 00:50:23.980 --> 00:50:34.489 Christie Thomas (she/her): you know, engagement and decisions that need to be made outside of the data import SIG before we can actually prioritize this work. And maybe that's not the case. 388 00:50:39.580 --> 00:50:54.529 Jennifer Eustis: And that, yeah, as you were saying that, Christy and Owen posted in chat, you know, that was the discussion of, you know, that one of those original documents was consistency across the ops. 389 00:50:54.760 --> 00:51:11.679 Jennifer Eustis: you know, because there's delete, and there's consistency issues more than with delete, but if that document lays it out, maybe that's a good starting point. And… sorry, wait a second. 390 00:51:16.250 --> 00:51:21.159 Jennifer Eustis: Sorry, my voice just went. So maybe we could use that document 391 00:51:21.380 --> 00:51:26.220 Jennifer Eustis: As a starting point, and maybe we should go back to… 392 00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:40.300 Jennifer Eustis: both the technical council as well as the product council to see if this is something that we can now get started on, and then, you know, discuss how we prioritize that. 393 00:51:40.510 --> 00:51:50.310 Jennifer Eustis: Or, you know, how do we ensure consistency of, you know, the development teams that are… that are working on Delete? Owen? 394 00:51:51.610 --> 00:51:59.970 Owen Stephens: Yeah, so… That… that previous discussion in the document I keep mentioning, that said, how… 395 00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:03.609 Owen Stephens: a delete should be handled. I, like… 396 00:52:04.550 --> 00:52:09.610 Owen Stephens: That when you deleted something, you could publish a message saying. 397 00:52:09.790 --> 00:52:18.950 Owen Stephens: It had been deleted, and that was, the… 398 00:52:21.120 --> 00:52:24.399 Owen Stephens: So, that does not include the… that… that… 399 00:52:24.890 --> 00:52:35.500 Owen Stephens: proposal, or that… that… well, I say proposal, it was a proposal that I worked on, but it was accepted by the Technical Council, so it's an accepted recommendation. The, 400 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:42.100 Owen Stephens: doesn't… Take into consideration the block, action. So… 401 00:52:42.160 --> 00:52:59.769 Owen Stephens: which I think this… this discussion has said kind of doesn't, you know, isn't what we're aiming at, but that… that question about actually not allowing a delete because other things rely on it is not handled by that… by that recommendation. That recommendation says delete it, and then tell everybody you've deleted it. 402 00:52:59.770 --> 00:53:02.999 Owen Stephens: Not, and this is how you should do that. 403 00:53:06.120 --> 00:53:13.139 Owen Stephens: in terms of, like, whether there should be other things, I think, like, there is, you know, there could be other 404 00:53:13.350 --> 00:53:27.319 Owen Stephens: things that we could agree on as a community, things like the two, you know, what tombstoming looks like, what soft delete looks like, you know, those are things that we could agree, but I don't think they're necessary for deletion to exist in the system. 405 00:53:32.060 --> 00:53:33.200 Jennifer Eustis: Kristen? 406 00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:45.699 Kristin Martin: Yeah, I'm just listening, and I might be misunderstanding, but if I'm hearing sort of what you were saying, Jennifer, and thinking about what Christy was saying, 407 00:53:46.780 --> 00:53:55.190 Kristin Martin: when we've tried to look at delete in, like, a holistic way, It's gotten really bogged down. 408 00:53:55.300 --> 00:54:00.930 Kristin Martin: But we have a use case for just data that gets created in error. 409 00:54:01.470 --> 00:54:07.370 Kristin Martin: And so, is one of the suggestions that's kind of out here is, like, providing 410 00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:17.499 Kristin Martin: An option that libraries could limit to very few people, to sort of do a delete without guardrails, just for that particular use case, and maybe that could be addressed. 411 00:54:17.700 --> 00:54:26.600 Kristin Martin: Well, some of these more holistic, like, data should be handled in the same way type of situations could be worked on, because it seems like 412 00:54:27.010 --> 00:54:31.180 Kristin Martin: One of the reasons why we can't clean up data created 413 00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:38.469 Kristin Martin: An error is because it's getting lumped in with this other type of use case for wanting to delete. 414 00:54:38.830 --> 00:54:42.650 Kristin Martin: And maybe that's something that could be kind of separated out. 415 00:54:49.570 --> 00:55:06.860 Jennifer Eustis: Yeah, exactly. I think it was Christy early on who said, or maybe it was Laura, I forget, sorry. So there's not just one way we should approach this. I mean, and the discrete methods are already here in many of the apps. 416 00:55:06.860 --> 00:55:19.280 Jennifer Eustis: So… and there is work, you know, at least in bulk edit, to address the, batch delete of holdings and items post-Umbrella leave. Owen? 417 00:55:21.770 --> 00:55:27.700 Owen Stephens: So… I think the issue that I would see with that idea that 418 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:34.409 Owen Stephens: we don't need to worry about it if it's this scenario, is that I don't know how you isolate that it's this scenario, so… 419 00:55:34.660 --> 00:55:48.540 Owen Stephens: I mean, I do think that if you are adding the ability to batch delete things, you are adding the ability to batch delete things, unless you are connecting that explicitly to a function that says. 420 00:55:48.850 --> 00:55:58.400 Owen Stephens: I'm creating all of this stuff, I'm tracking everything that I'm creating, or updating, and then… I'm going to… 421 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:05.999 Owen Stephens: keep that in memory, you know, keep a record of that so I can undo it and put everything back to how it was before. 422 00:56:06.250 --> 00:56:19.759 Owen Stephens: that I can see as a… I think I put something of that nature in the chat. Like, that as a function of a data import that tracks what it's doing, and then has the ability to therefore undo all of that, I can understand. 423 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:24.619 Owen Stephens: adding support for deleting things. 424 00:56:25.130 --> 00:56:26.290 Owen Stephens: en masse. 425 00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:27.790 Owen Stephens: like… 426 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:36.030 Owen Stephens: you can't… I don't know how you would then restrict that to, oh, but only if, you know, it's when I've made a mistake, because 427 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:41.170 Owen Stephens: For the system, it's all just data, right? There's no way to know that. 428 00:56:41.170 --> 00:56:47.949 Kristin Martin: Yeah, I wasn't saying the system would know that, I was saying, like, that would be sort of the caveat emptor of the library. 429 00:56:48.390 --> 00:56:49.900 Owen Stephens: Well, sure, yeah. 430 00:56:53.230 --> 00:56:54.400 Jennifer Eustis: Christy? 431 00:56:55.850 --> 00:57:04.359 Christie Thomas (she/her): Actually, I was just going to say what… what Kristen said, and what Mara is saying in chat. It's a permission… 432 00:57:04.460 --> 00:57:18.359 Christie Thomas (she/her): It's a permissions issue, and you know, it is definitely, you know, a riskier situation, and not everybody should be able to do that, or to decide that that is the approach. 433 00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:26.310 Christie Thomas (she/her): That should be taken, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the power to do that when we need to, when we absolutely need to. 434 00:57:27.460 --> 00:57:32.520 Christie Thomas (she/her): And we just need to be aware of the risks, you know, in doing so. 435 00:57:36.240 --> 00:57:45.669 Jennifer Eustis: Well, we're about 5 minutes until the end of time, and this has been a really great discussion. I think we have a lot to take back to… 436 00:57:45.670 --> 00:58:02.239 Jennifer Eustis: a data import, but I think also I'm on PC, and I think I might bring this up to PC as well, in terms of, you know, this discussion, and where we are, and, you know, that document that was an accepted recommendation. 437 00:58:03.830 --> 00:58:18.110 Jennifer Eustis: by technical counsel, and see if this is something that maybe we can revive, and see how we can prioritize it as well. Are there any last comments 438 00:58:18.430 --> 00:58:20.149 Jennifer Eustis: to the discussion. 439 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:35.170 Maura Byrne: if I could make, a remark about, permissions, just that, So far. 440 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:43.850 Maura Byrne: In my experience, and it's only been 28 years, but it's, 441 00:58:44.200 --> 00:58:47.670 Maura Byrne: When it comes to permissions, 442 00:58:48.680 --> 00:58:53.759 Maura Byrne: there is… there's very little malice. This is all gonna be… whoopsie. 443 00:58:55.510 --> 00:59:02.729 Maura Byrne: you know, the things you guard against, mischief, malice, and whoopsie. And, that's the sort of thing that can be… 444 00:59:03.860 --> 00:59:08.299 Maura Byrne: That can be addressed, you know, by permissions and training. 445 00:59:08.550 --> 00:59:16.570 Maura Byrne: And, you know, So, I think that… that worrying about permissions is not… not an issue. 446 00:59:19.570 --> 00:59:20.200 Jennifer Eustis: Tara. 447 00:59:21.980 --> 00:59:38.880 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Oh, we're getting so close, and I don't want to hold people. But yeah, I… just… it's interesting to me in this conversation, like, I tried to ask this in chat, and now I'm really wondering about it. It feels like if someone commissioned this functionality, like, specific functionality to be developed, then, like, the answer would be, like. 448 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:58.690 Tara Barnett (Index Data): that we need to figure out all of these sort of outstanding questions. And when things go through the prioritization process in the community, it feels like… it feels like the road has to be, like, completely smooth before things can move forward. And I don't know if other SIGs feel like that, you know? Like, so it almost feels backwards, depending on which way this gets approached. 449 01:00:00.730 --> 01:00:06.749 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Yeah. So, I don't know that not knowing everything at the start necessarily means that it can't move forward. 450 01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:26.129 Jennifer Eustis: And yeah, and that's a great point. I think things have been moving forward anyway. You know, we have already the set for delete, which, you know, responds to certain use cases. 451 01:00:26.130 --> 01:00:40.030 Jennifer Eustis: Bulk Edit is working on the batch, even though this is post-Umbrella, and we've, you know, we're, Mark Authorities has just put in, and this is for Umbrella Leave, a deletion of Mark Authorities. 452 01:00:40.070 --> 01:00:41.280 Jennifer Eustis: In batch. 453 01:00:41.380 --> 01:00:44.299 Jennifer Eustis: And so Data Import is looking at 454 01:00:44.530 --> 01:01:02.380 Jennifer Eustis: just the deletion of holdings and items through data import. So, I think a lot of this discrete work is happening and being prioritized. I think it's kind of at maybe a larger level, or with different record types. It's still… 455 01:01:02.580 --> 01:01:06.440 Jennifer Eustis: It's still being discussed, maybe, is my feeling. 456 01:01:10.020 --> 01:01:12.360 Tara Barnett (Index Data): Well, that's awesome, but we are at the end of the hour. 457 01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:19.139 Tara Barnett (Index Data): So, I guess I will say thanks very much to everyone who came. 458 01:01:19.290 --> 01:01:28.629 Tara Barnett (Index Data): And I hope to hear more about this in the coming days. That was a really interesting discussion, so everyone have a great Wednesday, and I'll talk to you later. Bye! 459 01:01:28.850 --> 01:01:30.140 Jennifer Eustis: Thanks, everyone. 460 01:01:30.140 --> 01:01:30.650 Kristin Martin: Bye. 461 01:01:30.650 --> 01:01:31.500 Laura Daniels: Bye!